It's been a while

So what was the book about again.  I just can't remember.

End Times...woohoo!

Hi everyone!

I wish I could have made it tonight, but it was a little tricky for us on a Thursday! I couldn't let this week's discussion slip by without the chance to make a few comments.

One of the most important things that I disagreed with in this chapter is the idea that we would have absolutely no idea when the Lord's return would be. We have been taught to expect Jesus' return for His elect at any time without warning, but there are very specific warnings for the end of time given throughout Scripture.

In example, when Jesus is speaking in Matthew 24, He says the time of His return will be likened to the days of Noah. The world was caught off guard, yes, but does anyone remember a certain family knowing the flood was coming? I recall an old guy and his family building a big boat and getting laughed at because he said disaster was inevitable. The idea that the elect will know when time is almost up is not an idea I came up with. (When Jesus says we won't know the day or the hour, I agree. We won't know the exact day or hour. He said later in reference to the Holy Spirit, that He would come and remind the disciples of the things He taught and give them new insight - I believe we find that in Paul's writings as well as other new testament authors) If you read 1 Thessalonians 5, you will find something interesting. Paul starts the chapter out by saying that the day of the Lord will come as a thief. People will be saying everything is well and secure and then in a moment unforeseen destruction. But THEN he says that "you" (meaning believers) "are not in darkness for that day to overtake you as a thief." In verse 6 he challenges us to be wide awake, watchful and circumspect. (Verse 9 also says He did not appoint us to wrath but to salvation through Christ and in ch 1:10 he says Jesus rescues us OUT of the wrath that is coming on the whole world.) In Hebrews 10:25 we are told to "gather ourselves together all the more as you see the day approaching." This shows that we who are watching will "see this day approaching".

I do not need to go over every passage in the Bible that tells us to be watchful for the return of the Lord, nor do I feel it necessary to go over the prophecies that have been fulfilled in the last 60 years.

In regards to prophecy, I find it interesting that Revelation is so frequently attacked. It is a booger to understand, but so were all the prophecies about Jesus' first coming until it was unfolding. One important and overlooked fact here...NO CONCEPT in Revelation originates in Revelation! Everything John discusses is a magnifying glass on what Daniel predicted over 500 years before Revelation was written. Interesting fact about Daniel, each prophecy that has been fulfilled has been fulfilled shockingly literally. In fact, so literally, that Bible critics suggest it was written after the events came to pass. Daniel foretold of 70 weeks of years (490 years) and 483 of them came to pass perfectly. Then something happened in Israel's history - it was interrupted if you will by the age of the Gentiles. John's Revelation describes in detail the last 7 years of Daniel's vision. The Gentile church was not part of the first 69 weeks of years, and so to me it is no big leap to anticipate not being part of the last 7 years (known as JACOB's trouble - a time of God dealing with unbelief) So at that point, byebye believer's, see you in the clouds!

Finally (and I apologize for my wordiness) Campolo stated that the teaching of the rapture originated with John Darby. It didn't. The Shepherd of Hermas (who was alive around 100 years after Jesus' death and resurrection) taught "if you prepare yourselves, repent with all your heart and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape the great tribulation." Somewhere in the 4th-6th centuries Ephraem the Syrian taught "all saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." So, where John Darby may have been the first to use the word "rapture" (taken from the Greek word "harpozo" meaning snatched or caught up in 1 Thessalonians 4) he was most certainly not the first man to teach it. Even if he had been though, it doesn't seem like the best argument to say it is too new to be true. In example, I recall some very intelligent men in early history thinking the world was flat. Just because that made sense to them, further study revealed the earth is quite shapely. I fail to see how this could be any different.

All right, that's enough from me for now. I really hope that any of you that made it will take time to fill the rest of us in on your conversation!

Looking forward to next time!

Jana

Thank you...

I just wanted to say that, while I've only been able to make the second of the past three sessions, I am very thankful for our group. It's wonderful to fellowship with dear friends while learning why what I believe is true and how to defend the Gospel to those who have been led astray. This book has proven to be quite controversial, but I am impressed and comforted that we're able to have a healthy and balanced discussion while examining the theologies of the authors.

I pray that this week "off" allows us to recharge and prepare for the ever-advancing holidays, while growing in Christ in the process. I encourage you (as well as myself) to spend much quiet time with the Lord this week, as this season often pushes us along at breakneck speed and we fail to reflect on the gift of our incredible Savior.

I'm excited to see you again soon and participate in intelligent discussions--something I don't always get while babysitting high schoolers or spending the day with an 18-month-old!

My God bless you richly and abundantly, dear friends of mine!

Prayer Requests/Praises

We may not always get around to individual prayer requests, but we want you guys to know how deeply we care about you and what is going on in your lives!!

The list as I remember it: (* = praise)

Perea's Escrow


Stepro's Offers


Dieballs Pre-Approval


*Norrs' Successful Test/Job


*Dickens Perfect Life  ;)


Jim - Cancer


*Bill/Dad/Grandpa - No Tumor


Clover's Hives

Home Group Recap #2 - Creation/Gays - Wait, was that the name of the chpt?

  Haha. I know our chapter was titled Theology and not Creation/Gays, but we rabbit-trailed so much last week, I had to look at the Table of Contents to refresh my memory!!

  For me, there were times last week felt a little tense. (I'm sure the little roaming, screaming children, a few tired/getting over colds attendees, and the broad subject matter we covered in a short, yet long, amount of time didn't help.) However, I still enjoyed broaching these difficult topics.

  As a full week has passed since that meeting, my memory is a bit foggy but I will do my best to summarize:

1. Theology 
  The foundational absolute truths according to Campolo regarding Christianity are: Jesus is God, He took all our sins away by dying on the cross, He rose again.

 After this though, we mentioned what other absolute truths there were. Jana was much better at discussing this, but a lot of us felt that there were things left out of the absolutes list that were crucial like - heaven and hell. 

  We were also concerned with the slippery slope this could leave people on if they thought after reading this chapter it was ok to go believe whatever they wanted to because it was their own theology.  However, we think Tony Campolo was merely stating that people have fashioned their theologies based on who and where they are in life (and other external factors), and that there is no one blanket theology. People for years have twisted verses to say what they want. 

  So what did we do with that? Are we to believe what we want? Cut and paste the way Noah said Thomas Jefferson (or some founding father) did? No! We believe that we need to diligently seek truth (by seeking the Truth, Jesus), we constantly sift and compare any beliefs with what the Bible really says, and we take into account the 'theologies' or 'beliefs' of Christians that have gone before us and those that are striving towards the goal with us.

  

2. Homosexuality (If you have not glanced at this chapter, you may want to.)

  The homosexual behavior is sin. Christians need to be able to extend the same grace we'd readily give to the adulterer, or the alcoholic/drug addict, the liar, or any other sinner. 

 Verses regarding this behavior have been twisted by some who say it isn't a sin if its between two monogamous people as it's not directly mentioned. Admittedly, there are some Bible verses that point towards specific acts of same sex teacher/pupil rape/molestation as the sin, however, we (as well as Campolo) acknowledge and know that the Bible says that the homosexual behavior is wrong.

3. Creation

  We discussed whether or not Creation (by evolution or design) was a salvation issue. ie Just because someone believed in evolution doesn't mean they don't know Jesus. 

  A debate regarding a literal 7 days account vs a possible poetic/allegoric account ensued but was cut short. You may continue it here if you like!

That's all folks!

Absolute Truth.

Whether we are discussing homosexuality, creation, end times, women in ministry, (etc...) we should all note that there is one truth for each issue. Meaning, either homosexuality is wrong, or it is not always wrong. Either the creation was a literal seven days, or it was not. The end times passages are merely literary exaggerations, or they are, in fact meant to be taken literally. Women have a place in public worship, or they do not.

The thing that is unsettling to me in discussing any of this is that Christians can land on different sides of all of these issues. What has gone wrong? What is happening? I know a great deal has to do with the fact that we are human - strong willed, often narrow-minded, undisciplined at times...- but we are Christians! Jesus says He is the Way, the TRUTH and the life. He also says that "if we abide in His word we are truly His disciples, and we will know the TRUTH and the truth will set us free."

Our God is a God of Light that delights in truth. In my mind, He would be pleased to reveal truth to those who really want to know it and seek Him as the source.

I know there are many things that we will not know on this side of eternity, but I believe too often we stop seeking "absolute truth" to keep peace. Maybe sometimes we aren't completely sure of what we say we believe, so we qualify our statements with the phrase "I believe..." or we don't want to land on any side so we stay neutral instead of seeking out the truth. How different would our conversations go with unbelievers if we changed our statements from "I believe there is a God" to "There is a God."

We need to be compassionate and loving, but consider the way Jesus talked to the Pharisees ("You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?") or the Sadducee's ("You err because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.") He knew their upbringing - he knew they thought they were doing a good job being religious. But He also knew how to call a spade a spade.

So my question is, do we keep the peace with fellow Christians who distort the scriptures we know to be clear? Or do we seek the Lord more to become confident in our faith with Biblical truth to back it up? May our great Counselor give us wisdom as we move through this life. May we never sacrifice truth for peace.

"May your conversation always be full of grace and seasoned with salt so that you may know how to answer everyone." Colossians 4:6

As we go through our lives, we will undoubtedly run in to people who sound wise and hold the same Bible we hold, yet seem to know a different god. A god who accepts unrepentant sinners, a god who didn't mean the things He said, a god that didn't really inspire the Bible. I pray we never let someone else's titles cause us to waver from the truth the Holy Spirit reveals to us in His Word.

Seek Truth! There is One right answer with God, He is NOT schizophrenic!

Love you all, good discussion!

Homegroup #1 Recap

Salvation is.... 

We had a lively discussion about what we thought Brian McClaren was saying regarding the definition of salvation (and what he was not saying). The discussion questions challenged us to state what our definition of salvation was and how we planned to better live that out. I think it's safe to say we all agreed that salvation is forgiveness of sin through Jesus' death on the cross, thereby salvation from hell, but we also acknowledged that: everyone has different journeys in coming to know Christ; there has to be some sort of decision to follow Christ at some point, even if it's not a huge moment; salvation is only the beginning of the Christian's journey and relationship with Christ and should not be considered the finish line.